Indigenous Elder Norm Leech Interview (06/18/2024)

(01:15.62) Did you grow up in East Van? Have you been in East Van for most of your life?

I grew up in East Van and lived in Lillooet for a while but then I came back. I’ve lived in Vancouver and Lillooet for my whole life.

(01:34.83) Is your Indigenous identity something you have always been aware of and always been connected to?

No, not until quite a bit later. I knew I had native relatives but we were non-status. When my mom married someone else, she stopped being an Indian. I was alive at the time too, so I also stopped, since that was the law. So we weren’t status Indians anymore until 1985 when we were reinstated and were able to become Indians again. Then I started spending more time back home on the reserve.

(02:22.20) So whereabouts is that at?

So I am from the T’it’q’et community, which is part of the St’at’imc nation, and our community surrounds the town of Lillooet. On the Fraser River, my ancestors have been there for thousands of years. I also have Chinese ancestry as well but I don’t know anything about that. There was a lot of inter-relations.

(02:51.34) I’ve met people from the Musqueam who have Chinese ancestry too.

Yeah like [Elder] Larry Grant and Howard E. Grant.

(03:13.15) I was going to ask you, I know you’re an Elder but what does that involve?

I don’t know. Yeah, I always thought of Elders as people who were older than me. I must’ve learned some stuff along the way so people think of me as an Elder. I guess it takes a little getting used to, I don’t know how to manage it entirely.

(03:51.21) Is it quite a new thing?

For me! Because I’ve only turned 61 this year, so I don’t think I’m that old. But I guess compared to other people.

(04:21.68) Does being an Elder come with responsibility, things you have to do, or that you’re expected to do in the community?

Well, there’s kind of a difference between an Elder and someone who’s just old. I think to be considered an Elder you have to have some cultural knowledge, you have to have learned some things, have some experience, and I presume be fairly well respected. You know, have a good reputation, and be credible. I think you should probably know what you are talking about, and I would expect be well-regarded in the community. I think I have most of those things. And other people have lived their lives and are older and I presume they are well respected in their families but I guess either they’re not able, or willing, or interested in speaking about some subjects. I am always willing to talk about decolonizing.

(05:43.11) Yeah, I noticed your Palestinian badge there.

Oh yeah, that’s part of it too.

(05:52.46) When did you start making those connections between Indigenous history and anticolonial struggles elsewhere?

It’s really been the last 10 years. Since I really started working in the urban Indigenous community of Vancouver and with the Vancouver Aboriginal Community Policing Centre Society (CPC). Then we would get requests from agencies who had questions about reconciliation, about Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls. Any of the issues that Indigenous people are facing; homelessness, overdose crisis. So they have questions because their clientele–their citizens–are asking questions like, “What can we do to help, why is it that way?”. So they would ask us, and then we would start to explain it to them. Through that process, we started to understand it ourselves more, and then we also understood that they survived colonization too, it’s just further back and further away, but the effects must have been very similar to ours. They have just had more time to get some distance between it and heal from it, and adapt to the results, but boy it must have been just as devastating for their ancestors as it has been for us. Cause ours has just really been in BC for the last 200 years. And then also realizing we are some of the last people to be colonized. Colonization was invented everywhere else first before it ever got here. So there’s a lot we can learn from their experience, and then our experience in still remembering how it was before. So in seeking healing and answers for our trauma, automatically gravitated towards “okay it’s our land, and our land is our relative and our ancestor, and she provides everything that we’ve ever needed throughout our history, for thousands of years, so, we can ask her ‘what can she provide us?’, and there was so much healing, medicine, comfort, and strength there. Then through there, through our specific approach to trauma–which is an Indigenous approach to trauma–understanding that we also have a connection to our ancestors through the land. Because all our ancestors are in the land, and the land is our oldest ancestor. Once we started reconnecting with that and understanding that that was where all our original health, strength, wisdom, and learnings came from, then it just made so much sense, that this would be the pathway forward for Indigenous people. And then sharing that with our newcomers, settlers, and immigrants, and understanding that they too can connect to their original land and ancestors and also find healing and strength.

(09:07.31) RMCS works with a lot of newcomers–some refugees, economic migrants, and all sorts of newcomers–what would you like them to know about Indigenous culture or your culture? Where would you see a settlement organization like RMCS that committed to trying to bring in more knowledge about Indigenous culture and history into our settlement programs. So two questions: What would you like newcomers to know about Indigenous culture and what could RMCS do?

Well, I would simply remind everybody that you have Indigenous roots somewhere. You have ancestors who lived on one piece of land for a thousand years and they knew that land, they loved that land, and we understand that. And then if you understand now that modern science and medicine says “If you spend a little bit of time in nature, it’s good for you!” but they don’t say “If we take you away from nature and we take you off the land and we put you in the city where there is no nature, it’s bad for you”. That’s the other side of that coin, but they don’t say that. Instead, they just want you to go get five minutes of fresh air, get a little bit better, then come back and work. Understand that taking people off the land and separating them from the land is bad for them. Understand that the fastest-growing mental health challenge in cities all around the world is loneliness. So disconnecting people from land, community, culture, and family, is bad for them too. And that is the result of the colonizing processes that separate people from the land, from each other, from culture, from community, and make everybody feel alone. Whereas Indigenous culture, and I think everybody’s original Indigenous society was about “we are all connected, we are all related, we are all part of a family, a community, a place of land. Nobody is separate, nobody is alone, nobody is isolated”. So those are two different ways of understanding what it means to live in this universe. You can either be alone, or you can be part of, and you can be part of everything. Pick one. We always knew that we were never alone, but colonization has tried and tried to teach us that we are alone. And that is the worst punishment that we ever imagined, that we ever invented, was to tell someone “Sorry you have to go be alone now”. That’s banishment, and that’s worse than death.

(12:41.52) If we’re working with newcomers who feel isolated or alone, what practical things could we be telling them or what could they do to improve their lives?

They would probably hear it better from an Indigenous person from here. Because we can speak to it directly. We have always been here. We have not been dislocated yet. We’ve been pushed off our full land and pushed onto reserves and refugee camps but we still have a connection to this land and our ancestors here. And to help them understand… guided meditation is a tool that works for us, to help people sense and relax, let your body be where it is. Let your body remember a good place. Sitting here now, close your eyes and visualize that place of trees, or place of water, or place of wind, a place that you know that your body remembers, and be there. Think about your body’s relationship with that place, and not only the body that you have now, but the water of your body, because your body has water. And is the water of your body related to the water there? Then they start to understand that yes all water is related. And that relationship never goes away. So, your water is related to all water, then you start to understand that you’re related to this planet. It’s a relative. It’s an ancestor. Then if you can start thinking of it as your oldest grandmother, and if I can help you visualize that; you find a place on the land, and you visualize it holding you, holding your body like a grandmother’s hands. And she’s holding you and she’s telling you, the land is telling you, “I love you grandchild you are awesome, you are amazing, I will love you every second of your life, and I always have, and if you need something come and ask”, and she will provide. She always has. Help people understand that there is a better relationship with land, than just property. Because that, that’s just empty. That’s not a relationship. And that’s a colonized relationship. Your ancestors had that relationship with land originally. But that got disconnected and disrupted.

(15:33.78) Can newcomers make a connection with the land?

Why not? All the land is connected anyways.

(15:44.80) I remember first coming to Canada and realizing I didn’t know the name of the trees or flowers, and it felt weird not knowing.

But you have to accept that you can, and then you do have to do some of the work. You have to learn. Because every land is different right? So the land taught those people there how to live there. In the desert, it taught them how to live in the desert. In the arctic the land taught them how to live in the arctic. Here in the rainforest, it taught us how to live in the rainforest. The best people to ask are the people who have lived there the longest. And they would share if they were asked.

(16:27.30) All I have is a Google App, which does help but it’s not the same as asking someone.

And that is the English or Latin name, that’s not the real original name. That’s not the name that the land taught us.

(16:47.87) So even then, I am not getting the full story.

You’re not asking the people who have known the longest.

(17:02.71) I was going to ask you about the National Indigenous Peoples Day coming up. What does that day mean to an Indigenous person? Is it a day that people celebrate and respect, is it seen as something that has been imposed from outside, or is it complicated?

Yeah, it’s complicated. Well we get to celebrate that we survived. Most people don’t know that we were so close to extinction. I think barely 1% of us survived. All the diseases, and all of the residential schools, all the harm, all the traumas of colonization. But if you think about the people who survived… could they have been weak? Could they have been slow? Could they have been less than? Could they have been stupid? No. They must have been tough. They must have been fast, smart, mean even, to survive all they had to survive. So they were amazing survivors. And every Indigenous person alive today is descendent from them. So we are selected for survival. We have what I call “Survivor Spirit”. That gives people–especially our young people–a different perspective on what it means to be an Indigenous person. It means your ancestors survived a lot so that you could be here. So it gives us a sense of responsibility but it also gives us a sense of strength and the understanding that not only did we inherit their traumas, their challenges, their struggles, but we also must have inherited their superpowers that enabled them to survive everything that they did. And also remember that not everybody survived. So we are descended from the survivors. But then I also have to say to everyone I speak to: just like you, because you are a descendant of the survivors too. And if you think about all the things that your ancestors had to survive–like war, pandemic, migration, dislocation–well many did not survive those things. But your ancestors did. So then the question is “Okay so if we are facing challenges today, that we don’t see answers to or they’re not clear, well is there a deep ancient source of wisdom that we haven’t explored yet?”. All that Indigenous knowledge that was discounted, devalued, wiped out, destroyed by colonizing systems… let’s have a look, cause we remember, and all I want to do is have the conversation. So you say that Canada’s ways, colonial ways, these parliamentary laws and systems are better than ours? Okay you say that, let’s have a look then, let’s have the debate, let’s have the conversation. Because ours worked for ten thousand years. Our forests were the biggest on the planet, our salmon runs were the biggest on the planet, and our caribou herds and buffalo herds were the biggest on the planet. Where are they now? So please defend your system someone.

(20:51.33) Is it sometimes difficult for Indigenous people seeing how many newcomers come to Canada? Is it ever that feeling of “Oh my gosh there’s more people that don’t understand the history or culture”? It’s kind of tricky because you have no say over the processes set in place by the federal government around immigration.

Initially yes. Especially if we see them prospering, and if we accept the presumptions and assumptions that are told to us, that it’s a zero-sum game, and that if they’re prospering, it must be at the expense of someone else. But I see it more as well, these are actually natural allies because they didn’t write these rules, and we didn’t write these rules. So neither of us feel the benefits or protections of these rules. So then if we ask each other the question of “whose rules are these? Who wrote these rules?”, well it wasn’t us. As in most colonial countries around the world, it ended up being a small interest group of old, wealthy, colonized, educated men. And that’s who ends up benefiting the most from those laws. So if you were setting up a system and you have the opportunity to write the rules, to write the laws, well who’s going to win? Me if I write them. What a brilliant system.

(22:46.39) So do you think colonialism and its system is still very much present in Canada?

Oh of course, absolutely. In every country in the world where it’s been in, they left their systems of laws, parliamentary systems, governing models, their contracts, and their language. There’s so many diabolically brilliant tools of colonization that the more you notice them, and the more you look into them, the more you see “Wow they’ve thought of everything”. They’ve covered every base. Whether it’s the language, education system, economic models, or the systems of written laws.

(23:54.49) Is there anything good about colonialism, is there anything in there worth keeping, is there anything that is good by accident in there?

I don’t know. Let’s have a look.

Have that conversation?

At the moment what I’ve been turning my attention to is; okay if these tools of colonization are so brilliant, then is there a way we can take those tools and use them to our advantage instead? To use them back against the system? So we are trying that, and now I manage a neighbourhood house and one of the attractions is that we have over 300 child care spaces but they take a Reggio Emilia inspired approach. Which means that those children are taught that nature is fascinating, and the staff are insistent that they go out into the neighbourhood everyday to see the plants, animals, trees, the weather, and experience the world. They are encouraged to explore their curiosity and their fascination with everything natural. And I say that’s awesome! They’re halfway towards an Indigenous relationship with land, so let’s complete that. We all know the harm that residential schools did to Indigenous children in Canada, but now there’s 300 families that send me their children everyday. And if I can teach those children that the land is not just property… the land, we are part of it, we are connected to it, we are related to it, we need to have a relationship with it, and it goes both ways. Not just that we take things from it or that it’s dirty, icky, or goanna make us sick, but that it is amazing and to know it better is to know your great great great great grandmother. So if that is a tool of colonization I can use back against itself, to help raise a generation of children who have a different, more Indigenous relationship with land, then awesome, then that’s one good example and we can explore more. I am actively trying to decolonize many things throughout this city. Like meetings, so we’re trying to abandon Robert’s Rules of Order, and move into circle processes where people sit around a circle like our ancestors did around the fire to talk about “what do we do now?”, and to come to consensus decisions without having to resort to a vote.

(27:06.35) Are there other ways that an organization like RMCS or any nonprofit is managed, are there ways we could bring in Indigenous culture into the way we operate?

Circles! Sitting in circles rather than sitting in rows. It changes the way a meeting is conducted, it changes the way we relate to everybody else in the circle. There is no one standing up front who is obviously the person in authority. A circle is levelling, it’s equalizing, and there’s nobody behind you or in front of you. In fact, everybody is beside you. And that is an entirely different position than someone in front of you, or behind you pushing you forward. It’s a difference in telling someone “I will stand beside you through this, through whatever is happening, I will stand beside you rather than ‘I’ll lead you’ or ‘I’ll be behind you’”. Beside is different.

(28:25.95) In regards to National Indigenous Peoples Day, what could people do to make it a more meaningful experience? Not just ticking the box… going beyond that.

Well I would say, ask your politicians “Explain to us why Indigenous people–who managed everything perfectly for ten thousand years–why is it that you will not allow them to have more than 0.3% of the land in Canada?”. Is it because they don’t have a track record of ten thousand years of successfully managing all of the land? Is it because you’re afraid that they’ll take the land and move to the Caribbean with it? Explain it. Because we have known this land for thousands of years and we know what works, and we have learned what doesn’t work. If people really want to know how to live as good responsible human beings, in a sustainable way on these lands, then ask the people who have lived there the longest. And we will teach everyone how to live on these lands in a good way. We lived everywhere across this continent, we still live everywhere across this continent. From the furthest most desolate arctic coastline to the highest mountain, the hottest deserts… we won’t leave those communities. So if anyone wants to know how to manage, govern, and take care of those lands we will tell them. And I also guarantee that if you help us get our land back, we’ll lower your taxes!

(30:38.54) In somewhere like Richmond, where there are other bands and other nations, is there solidarity? Is there a connection between Indigenous people? Even though it is very diverse, there are 70,000 Indigenous people living in the Vancouver area, the vast majority of them are from far away–me included, this is not my ancestral territory. The largest group is the Cree speaking people, there are more Cree speakers than any other language grouping in Vancouver. That’s amazing, really?

That is one of the languages that is not endangered because there was so many of them it covers a wide geography.

Is that a product of colonialism? People coming here [Vancouver area] for work?

Yeah, could be why they come here, they migrated to escape dangerously cold winters, or looking for work. The diversity is vast but there is a lot of commonality in the relationship that people have with the land, and the way that we understand our connection to ancestors, and our connection to everything. Most have a way in their language of saying “all my relations”, we say Takem Nsneknukwa, which is “all my relationships, with everything, everywhere, everywhen”. And almost everybody has a way of saying that in their language. So there is that common understanding of what it means to be a good human being and living on Turtle Island. That it’s about the land, that it’s about the ancestors that it’s about being a good human being and largely about being grateful. So if I could sum up what an Indigenous way of being is, it would be paraphrasing what I’ve learned from my Elders is “listen, pay attention, notice, and then, help… how can you help maintain balance, restore balance, what can you do to help?” Because you have all those gifts–the senses, to notice imbalance, to notice harm, to notice trauma, to notice people who need help. Then you also have all these other gifts of dexterity, of intellect, of mobility, to help restore balance and to transform things back towards balance rather than towards imbalance. And really I think that’s been the gift that enabled Indigenous people to live in the Americas for thousands of years as part of. Not above, not ownership, but as part of.

(34:11.46) I’ve heard the term Turtle Island, but what does that mean and where does it come from?

I don’t know. It’s not my language either but it must’ve come from someone. Maybe even from seeing the map [of North America]. Sometimes if you look at North America in a specific way it can look like a turtle. And there’s ancient stories of after the flood that a turtle swam down to the bottom and brought up mud from the bottom on its back. And slowly then the people had a little bit of earth to start growing things on it and rebuild their land after the flood. It’s all connected, all the land is connected to one planet. Everyone is Indigenous to earth. And if humans don’t figure out a way of living here responsibly then we don’t deserve to survive as a species. I think that if humans are serious about asking how it can be done, then I say that Indigenous people in North America are some of the last ones who remember. I think there is so much wisdom, teachings, and knowledge in the old ways that is worth looking at. Then other people can start looking at theirs too, and there’s probably great wisdom for people who are from Africa, Asia, from all parts of the world saying “you know what? We remember too”. And all we have to do is trust that those memories, those genetic, those cellular memories can still be accessed. And there’s no reason they can’t. And then we just have to have the conversation and be able to compare different ways to find what would work better.